us and them Monday, February 20, 2006
8:20 AM Permalink
i very often find, when discussing something like patriarchy, that people who believe it’s a non-issue come up with a line like “why don’t you do something for homeless children or dalit women instead of spending so much time on feminism and antipatriarchy?”. other than the fact that feminist concerns include the very same homeless children and dalit women – its not an either-or – that’s just a rotten way of trying to fragment the community of women again.
Feminism is hated because women are hated. Anti-feminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defence of women-hating. – Andrea Dworkin
a decent guy would feel upset and bothered that he's being forced to take such a call - he shouldn’t, it isn’t fair on him - but it’s a minority who feel secure enough about their masculinity to respect the person before the system and say to hell with the pseudo-macho stereotypes thrust on men.
so at the end of the day we have decent men feeling miserable because theyre coerced into non-choices like that, and women feeling traumatised because they don’t get support or respect from even the men they know.
patriarchal conditioning runs so deep, that sometimes, even women turn against each other and ask the same stupid questions like “what were you wearing that he was tempted to rape you?”. when women put womenkind first – before a race, economic class, country, caste or religion, we move much closer to helping each other and getting somewhere.
The sight of women talking together has always made men uneasy; nowadays it means rank subversion. - Germaine Greer
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February 20, 2006 11:35 PM
so, do you think things would have been different- i mean whether we would have a society free of enforced stereotypes-if history had handed down a matriarchal system instead of a patriarchal one?
February 21, 2006 2:25 AM
you're so right!
as a matter of fact, i find it hard to get along with women who are not independent or in some way talented and self-willed. i cannot bear to spend more than ten minutes with a woman who watches K serials, and seeks entertainment through shopping alone.
that boss-bitch stereotype is SO untrue, by the way. i knew at least three women as immediate superiors and found them to be more fair, more concerned, more approachable than male bosses. i'd prefer a woman boss any day... except if she's psychotic or ruthless. and i know men who're ruthless and psychotic too.
i do not allow anything become an excuse for not carving my own identity. i see no reason why anyone else should. i'm very intolerant that way, and i think things will not change for women until we all stop tolerating women living like second-rate humans, whether by force, or of our own choosing.
February 21, 2006 5:46 AM
Well said. I would say that the boss-bitch stereotype is also untrue. I have worked for several women and it is really a non issue. And guys can be bad too.
Coming from the perspective of someone who has live both in India and in a western society like the US I would say these issues resonate even in different cultures. There are the usual MIL/DIL issues (though there aren't joint families like they do in India). As I am sure you know there is a glass ceiling here too for professional women. The country (mostly a lot men) are not quite ready to deal with the idea of a woman President. The rise of Christian conservatism (with it's focus on women being deferential, no right to an abortion) is another issue.
Just my 2 cents :-)
February 21, 2006 10:50 PM
I second that!
Male bonding in ancient times was esentially formed as a way to assist efforts to control other groups of humans. Unfortunately, it ended up degenerating into a race to control and crush women over the ages. The sad part is men over the ages have taken fairness on the part of women and used it to control them further..slowly sowing the seed of patriarchy.
Why is that we are always told when we were girls, that women gossip and women can never get along with each other if put together? I have heard men gossip way more than women and I have also seen men label women and spread gossip faster than any woman I know.
One myth we have (that, not surprisingly, helps maintain patriarchy) is that even the slightest action of a man which does not show overt and blatant sexism, is praised and commended. If he does one thing around the house or refrain from saying one sexist comment, he's a hero. With such obnoxious and extreme inflation, it is not surprising that
men convince themselves that they are esteeming beacons of equality.
Women are made to accept this pseudo "equality" in the name of fairness and have unknowingly been bullied into accepting this "equality".
P.S: I know its a really long comment:)
February 22, 2006 7:12 AM
priyanka, ive no idea. the idea isnt to topple one form of oppression with another, if that was what you were driving at.
tablemannered: precisely!
karmic_jay: ah yes. in fact, the feminist movement was started by activists who formerly fought for freedom for the black people. they opted out when they found that the same tactics that were used to oppress the blacks, were in turn used within the black community to oppress their women.
women are basically at the lowest rung of the caste system of almost every society in the world.
megha: yes! its such a big deal when a man helps around the house one day, but a mundane unremarkable thing when a woman goes to work.
i guess women are taken for granted: they will do whatever is (deemed) necessary for the family.
btw, you may like this.
February 22, 2006 8:19 AM
M.. I read the link above , liked it and then typed out a longish comment to it. The i realized I was commenting about a post almost a year old and relaized no one might read my rant and so posted it here. May be it is still relevant?
My 2 cents on this issue. When we got married my wife took my first name as her last name. We are not from Southern India where this may be common(?). Also my parents although old fashioned are remarkably openminded. They were ok with it and she was not really asking their permission. We had had our discussions when we were dating (and not sure we were gonna marry) about relationships. We felt the best way for any relationship was for both partners to be equaland treat each other with respect and trust.
She had a harder time when she tried to apply for her passport (this was more than 10 yrs back).
The bureaucrat at the desk tried to tell her about how she was wrong in taking my first name instead of our family name as her last name. It was a question of familial/cultural identity and so on.
But the tough gal that she is she persisted and it worked cos that was her right that she could call herself whatever she wanted.
Changing tracks to the present.. We both work in jobs that have long hours and we live in the US (no formal family networks to help out if needed). That would mean we pick up the slack for the other if needed, which includes cooking, laundry or grocery shopping all the mudane but essential things that need to be done around the house.
Also even when we both have time we prefer doing a lot of these things together, cos it is more fun too. A chance to spend more time together and all.
So ya I am a feminist :-)
Anyway sorry about the long post :-)
February 23, 2006 10:03 AM
oh well, living away from home does teach all of us to handle out issues by ourselves. Unfortunately though, all most men seem to gather from such experiences is that housework is boring mundane and often quiet demanding. They fail, however, to think in terms of what the wife must go through to do all this and keep her job, once they get married. They are just happy they don't have to do it anymore!!!
@karmic_jay: good for you though sinc you seem to understand that its as much your house as hers.
February 24, 2006 5:56 AM
Hey
I thought Blank Noise Project's blog-a-thon on eveteasing/street harassment might be something the writers here might look into seeing how it is related to feminism.
Just thought I'd let you know!